Drive Belt Problems

rlwhit · January 03, 2008, 07:56:50 PM

Twice now our '78 440 has thrown the Power Steering and Water Pump drive belts. I checked for worn bearings in the Water and Power Steering Pumps. Also checked the Fan Clutch (new). All have checked out okay. Removed the lower water hose so I could have a good look at the Idler pulley and it also looked good. It seems that when the Thermostat opens and water starts flowing is when it happens. Has anybody experienced this? Any thoughts as to what I should look for from here? We want to attend the meet in Gilroy this Feb but, until I figure this out we are parked. Other then that the ole beast is still running great. Roger ACOC #3206

JerryT · January 04, 2008, 08:42:04 PM

Roger
I have also been fighting belt issues on my 78/440. I have drove and repaired Dodge trucks for 30+ years, and I have had many 60's, 70's, and 80's Dodge's(old v belt style) and I have never had a belt/s problem untill I got my Clipper. I have read all the old news letters and read all the old posts for advise as this problem seems so odd to me. So here is what I think.
#1 These vans suffer from deferred maintenance, ie, the belts are run loose and then slip and glaze/wear out the pullys
#2 All things (a/c ps alt ect) may not be in true allignment with each other due to age (flexing) and old repairs or factory defect.
#3 Hostile environment (heat, oils, and more heat)
#4 Viscous fan clutch may not engage or disengage properly or at all.
#5 Alternator under heavy use.
#6 Placement of power steering pump due to space confinements.
So here's what I have done so far.
#1 Installed a rebuilt alternator with a new pulley on it, and a hardend pivot bolt.
#2 New matched set of alt a/c crank belts (these are sold as a matched sized pair only)
#3 New extra heavy duty fan clutch (check old post for part #)
#4 Shimmed power steering pump for alignment
#5 New p.s. belt (top quality)
#6 Keep belts very tight, almost too tight.
#7 Installed 160 deg. thermostat.
#8 Installed 3 core radiator.
#9 Installed air ducts to engine and air cleaner, and added 3" exhaust to rid heat. (see old post)
And here's what I still want/like to do.
#1 Install new driving pulley/s (crank) and driven pulley/s (water pump A/C)
#2 Change P.S. pump pulley to a double (2 groove) Custom job shop in Texas is going to make me one this winter.
#3 Double Triple check all alignments.
The power steering belt squeal is a know issue with the double pulley being the work around.
People have reported that shimming has helped.
The ACOC sells a hardend alternator pivot bolt as some have had them break. (keeping belts very tight)
I have found that if a belt won't stay on that it could be broken inside (cord) or alignment between pulleys is off.
Water pumps always pump so if your belt comes off on thermo opening could it be heat? i.e. belt stretch or is the p.s. belt knocking off the other belts?
Good luck and let us know how you slay your problem.
JerryT

rlwhit · January 05, 2008, 10:52:52 AM

Thanks Jerry. Before this storm hit I pulled everything off and have it layed out for inspection. Will replace everything I can buy new and rebuild the rest. I'm well aware of the alternator bolt problm from my street racing days as a teen...lol. My dad made me a special bracket and when Jim gave us his clipper that was the first thing I installed. Sill have if after all these years. My step son called just this morning and told me he located the Ford double pulley in a junk yard down in Yuma and has Fedx'd to me. Kragen Auto Parts had NASCAR approved belts and if these stay on I will post the part numbers. Discovered the first set were the wrong ones. It took the store clerk two days of research to find the right ones. Believe it or not there are two different sets of belts for the 440. Who knew? Anyway thanks again for your input and will post later on how this works out. Hope to see everyone @ Gilroy in Feb. Been a long time since we have been out.

Roger
ACOC#3206

clockwork · January 06, 2008, 05:52:28 AM

I haven't had the belt problems others have noted, my 440 already had the dual belt alt. and new belts all around when I got her 2+ years ago. If heat is (partially) the culprit, I can say that Jerry's engine compartment air duct mod significantly lowers doghouse and adjacent floor temps on road trips. I still have a partially melted right sneaker to remind me of the 'before' condition. Every time I see on of Jerry's mods, I get the feeling he one of the guys the folks in Jericho would like to keep around!
dave

JerryT · January 06, 2008, 10:41:15 PM

Dave
Last time we had the clipper out I looked over and Roxann was riding up front bare foot! I even had to use the heater a time or two

JerryT

rlwhit · February 28, 2008, 08:56:54 AM

After pulling everything I got sick again and didn't get working on the "BEAST" until Monday. Everything checked out however when pulling the power steering pump I discovered one mounting bolt lose and one stripped. I fault the shop that replaced my clutch fan for that one. I had problems finding the idler pulley drive belt. I took a old belt I had and cut it. I then wrapped it around and marked it. Kragens was able to match it with a belt. I will post the part number later for those that have the 440 with idler pulleys. Yesterday armed with a packed tool box and plenty of belts I drove from Greenfield to San Jose and back. Needless to say I did not take it easy. I put a strain on the 440. All I can say is my 'BEAST" is her old self again. For all that posted their input on this problem I thank you.

Roger ACOC# 3206

jon · March 02, 2008, 10:52:09 AM

The 440 in my 76' was replaced with a 400 before I got it. It has the double belt pully on the alternator. I thought the belts were tight enough but still squeels. I guess I will have to get shorter belts and check the alignment of the power sterring pump. The squeel got worse the more I drove it. Thanks for answering my quention before I asked it. At least I know I'm not the only one fighting this problem.

rlwhit · March 17, 2008, 08:59:30 PM

Still keeping my fingers crossed on these belts. I put close to 450 miles on her last Friday when I went up to Healdsburg (Sonoma County) and back down to Greenfield. Did this in one day. My pickup has a lift on the back of it and needed to tow another truck back down. Anyway belts held up just fine. I did stop South of the San Francisco and ajusted the Idler Pulley Belt. Felt like it was a little lose. From now on any work done by other then myself WILL BE CHECKED before leaving the shop. Have learned my lesson.

Roger
ACOC #3206

JerryT · March 19, 2008, 07:08:06 PM

Roger
Did you get that dbl ps ford pulley? Did you get it on? Did it work? Do you know where there is another one

I still need to do mine.
JerryT

rlwhit · March 25, 2008, 08:29:40 AM

Sure did Jerry. My stepson found it by accident in a junk yard down in Yuma Az. I installed it on my new pump which I have not installed yet. Since I discovered the reason for throwing my belts I go by the old saying "if it's not broke don't fix it"...lol...I have had that pulley out on the junk yard hot line plus have checked a number of parts house's for over a year and have not located any so far. They are indeed rare. I spoke with a friend of my late father-in-law who is an old time Blacksmith. He took an old pump and two regular pulleys I had and said he would play around and see if he could make doubles. I'm waiting for his answer. If it works out I will post the info and how to get in touch with him.

jon · May 04, 2008, 06:39:00 AM

I finally figured out what my problem was. The waterpump made a little noise so I replaced it $23 for a reduilt one. In the process I found that the alternator bearings made a little noise too, so while I had everything torn apart anyway I spent $28 to put new bearings put in that. Finally I got new belts for it that cost me $30. so I got off pretty lucky $81 dollars later everything is fine.

JerryT · May 08, 2008, 11:12:30 AM

Hey Roger
Do you have the correct Ford part# for that pulley? Is there a # on that pulley your son found in Yuma?
I just got back from a 15 day 2100 mile trip and I had to change that PS/fan belt on the side of the road. I put on my used spare till I bought a new one. $15 for a Gates or $5 for a China one, I bought the Gates and put it on TIGHT, good for a day or two then I heard it slipping, re-tighten it and keep going. I am almost guessing that it's that big factory 7 blade clutch fan putting the drag on the belt. I think I want a new fan and crank pulley when I upgrade to the Dbl PS pulley as those have to be worn down/out by now! Everything else went perfect, I love my reverse swing auto opening/closing door a lot! and the dome addition is awsome! My MPG went up about 10%, go figure, I never got less than 7 or more than 8 before, now I am in the 8s more than I am in the 7s, It must break the vacuum/drag on the roof area some how. At $4 a gallon+ I might just get a payback someday if I can afford to buy enough fuel to drive it $:-\$
JerryT

jon · May 10, 2008, 05:10:14 AM

I did find out that you can put the powersteering belt on too tight. I had to get a new powersteering pump because the bearings went out in the old. I thnk a combination of age and overtightning the belt.

rlwhit · May 22, 2008, 09:13:31 PM

Sorry folks for not posting follow ups. It has been crazy around here. Not sure if anyone remembers my father-in-law James B. "Jim" Lovelace (the carrot man) but he passed last August. Just finished settling his affairs. Then I became a granpa x 2 which makes 6 now. (they have to stop this) Begining to feel real old.

The pully part number should be the same on listed in the tech forum. But trust me you will NOT find one through Ford Dealers. I tried for over a year. It was discontinued. My step son lucked out in Yuma. I've had the part out on the Junk Yard hot line up in Prunedale, but no luck so far. The guy here in Greenfield who is an old time welder is trying to make one. The two he made were no good. Giving it one more try.

I haven't put my new pump on yet because everything is working fine. Since I put on the last set of belts. One thing I discovered is if you tighten the idler pulley belt super tight first then the pump belt to normal speck there is no overload on the pump bearings. So far hasn't effected the water pump bearings.

I have put just over 2200 miles on it and other then a tire going it has ran perfect. Tire was my fault.

Last friday I filled the main 50 gallon tank plus the 25 gallon I mounted and it cost me $292.50. Needless to say it will be parked for awhile. On a good day with a tail wind I might get 7 to 7.5 to the gal. Normal is around 6.5 That is if I can stop my wife from loading up the entire house kitchen grrrrrrrrr.

I would sell it, but Jim found it and signed it over to us. Can't part with it.

Roger
ACOC# 3206

rlwhit · May 23, 2008, 09:17:23 AM

One other thing I forgot to mention. When I had the water pump, power steering pump and idler pulleys off I took a .45 cal pistol type bore brush and attached it to my cordless drill. I ran it around in the grooves of each pulley. This roughed up the surface slightly. My thinking is this will help the belt grip better. Checking the belts shows no increased ware. Could change as miles build up. Will keep a eyeball on it. Bought these brushes fom Harbor Frieght. Little stiffer then a bore brush.

Roger
ACOC#3206

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