The Electrical Dunce needs help (again)
Went to start the Clipper this afternoon - nothing - just a light click when the key is turned - then one louder click when trying to turn it over - and that's it. New battery, good connections, plenty of juice (all Dodge lights working and bright)
Looked at the starter relay - missing one of the mounting screw/studs! what the heck???
Now - it was still somewhat "tight" - but I could move it by hand - so I suspect the grounding wasn't the greatest.
It's dark now and I'll have to get to this later in the week (rain coming, work, etc.) - need to find the right bolt/screw thingy too.
Question.
Would a starter relay that wasn't screwed tightly to the firewall prevent a Clipper from starting?
Thanks
Horst
Hey bro, yes it could happen...
I have had that problem with mine..
I just wiggle the lil bugger and shazammmmmme
she starts" I finally got tired of doing that so I just tighened it to the point
it wont dare laugh at me again...
John :)
Horst, When you hear the "click" that means the starter is getting enough voltage to close the solenoid. When the solenoid closes it moves the starter teeth into mesh with the ring gear and makes contact with the spin circuit. Check voltage at the starter. If you have good voltage then my best guess is the contact inside the starter. If the starter clicks then the relay is working. Doug
Thanks Doug - I was beginning to suspect that - a friend also told me the loud click was evidence that juice was getting to the starter - so relay is OK. I'm going to try the old rubber mallet trick and test/inspect the solenoid/starter wires, etc.
Thanks.
Doug (or anyone) - could a bad negative battery connection (ground) cause low voltage at the starter?
YES. The same amount of current has to flow back to the source ( Battery ) to complete the circuit. On the new cars there are 20 to 30 grounds wired back to the battery. I remember John said he had a bunch of starters. LOL They are easy starters to work on if you can get any year motors manual or shop manual you can figure it out. Doug
Thanks so much! Now I have several points to check - course its gonna rain all week here - but at least I have a plan - which is more then the electrical dunce (me!) normally has!!
Just as a follow-up - a buddy looked at my problem and is 95% certain it is in fact the starter relay - that "click" I heard was not in the solenoid - so juice was not getting to the starter. He "jumped" the relay with a screw driver - and the starter fired right up.
Now it's raining like heck of course - might even get a few snowflakes on the beach! Hopefully Saturday I'll get it taken out, then of course the parts store won't have it - so I'll have to order it blah blah....hoping to have the Clipper running again by next week.
Wait just minute! I MIGHT have a spare relay - will have to check my spare parts box - heck I might get lucky!!
The way things have been going though, most likely, I'll have everything EXCEPT the relay.
OR, you might have a bad spare relay........
Oh crap, I should not have said that !!!!!!!!! ssorrrry
I am leaving for the house in Oregon tomorrow afternoon.....
Hope we can get thru the Grapevine and the roads up there are clear!!!!
It was 10 degrees yesterday morning....then i have to find a trailer to take up my Chevy,,,, nothing on Craigs list....CRAP..
Latter gaters, John :)
Hi Horst
The relay on our Clippers has 4 terminals, the large power wire from the battery, the smaller big wire that feeds the bendix built into the starter, and the two relay control wires. One of the two wires is feed with 12v when the key is turned to crank. The other wire provides ground for the relay via the Neutral Safety Starting Switch i.e the shifter must be in either park or neutral. If you jumped the relay and it started then you proved that the two larger wires are working, now you must prove which of the two small wires is giving you problems or prove that the relay has failed (rare) If you pull off the two push on small wires then ground one relay terminal and give the other relay terminal 12v from the battery (polarity does not matter) it will activate a good relay and the engine will crank over. If it does not then a new relay is needed. The ground is usually the suspect as it gets it's ground at the NSSS that is threaded into the transmission. Will it start in neutral? The NSSS can get sticky? from sitting. The old Mopar stick shift trucks had no NSSS and one of the two small wire terminals was grounded right at the case of the relay. This style relay had to be grounded/bolted down to work, the one on our Clippers does not need to be bolted down to work. You also can test the grounded wire with a 12v test light, just clip it on to the + side of the battery and probe the small wires. One should allow the light to light up when in park or neutral. You can also test the hot crank wire from the key, just connect the test light to the - side of the battery and probe the wires while someone holds the key to the crank. If the hot is good then the test light will light up. You can test both wires +&- without fear of causing a problem. Let us know what you find out.
JerryT
Had that problem like yours in Seligman on route 66 several years ago. Sat there for a while took the dog house off still no cranking. Finally took it out of gear and put it in park!!!!!!!!!!1. Might check your park neutral switch.
Thanks for the detailed tips Jerry.
Turns out (like I suspected) I have almost everything except a starter relay. Local parts store will have one for me by around 10am saturday.
So I plan to do this backwards. I'm going to go ahead and install the new relay. If it works, good. If not - then trouble shoot the wires/grounds and try to fix the issue. (The only two wires I didn't already remove, clean, check and refasten were those two push-on wires (me being the electrical dunce and all - you have to expect that!) If it turns out it was simply a bad wire somewhere I'll have the spare relay I need anyway. And, if it turns out it was a bad relay - then I'll go and buy another one as back-up!
Wiper motor issue is next on the docket.
I should have done it Jerry's way!!! (But then, that's what an electrical dunce does......his own dumb way)
So I swapped out the relay - no start.
Jerry says check ground push wire - I clean and refasten at the relay, then follow that damn ground to the side of the driver's side of the tranny, above the front of the tranny pan - and there's that "threaded" little 3 wire "plug" doohickey. I have never even touched that thing in the entire time I owned the Clipper - duh!
So it was nice and dirty/greasy/oily.............I pulled it off - wiped it up at bit, pushed it back on.........and just for poops and giggles I went to turn the Clipper over and ...voila...turns over. Stopped immediately - now I'm going to spend some time and really check that thing out and clean it good.
It's OK though - now at least I learned something (Thanks Jerry!!) and now I have a back-up relay.
Now back to cleaning that plug thingy.
Oh - this episode will go into the "electrical dunce" Hall of Fame for sure................
Minor set-back....
So I cleaned up that connector and the receptacle, plugged it in - no turn over??!!
What the heck!
I go back down, and I notice I can turn that receptacle from right to left, maybe about 3/8 of an inch or more??
It was all the way to the right, so I turned it to the left to the "snug" point - and it fires right up.
Note that the three "prongs" that are threaded into the case don't move, just the push on cap.
Jerry - is my receptacle/cap worn, or is this normal "play" - I push it on, and it can be turned a little - to the right - no start - to the left - full power.
What's the deal here?
thanks
Horst
Hi Horst
Yes the plug at the NSSS can become loose. You can re-size the pin openings with a little muscle and a good pair of pliers. That area can also get some extra heat from the motor/exhaust which seems to age things. Make sure that the wire going to the NSSS is not too tight, it needs to move a bit. You might have a wire broke at that 3 terminal connector but I would vote for dirty/weak pin contact. The NSSS also provides the switch function for the back up lights (the other two wires) I like the Mopar starter relay, I use them for other switching applications on my trucks, they make a great horn relay. Keep us posted and thanks for the compliment! Your never a dunce as long as your learning!!!
JerryT
Hello Horst, Sounds like you found the problem, Just think of the neutral/park switch like a light switch in your house. There is a detent inside the transmission that pushes in on a little ball on the end of that switch with the 3 wires that completes the circut when you have the shift lever in park or neutral, so thats the only places you can start the motor. It is a safty switch so the motor will not start while the shift lever is in foward or reverse gear. Yes the contacts in the plug should fit snug and make good contact. As long as the plug contact prongs are not broken off you can bend them in to make a tighter fit for better contact. Hank Out!
Jerry, so you're talking about needle nose pliers I'm guessing. I thought about that too when I was looking at it.
I think I'll give that a whirl tomorrow. Now to be sure - I'm going to "resize" the three female parts of the connector - just a little, so that the three prongs that are in the tranny case will fit more snug.
I don't feel good about "bending" the prongs Hank - I'm afraid with my luck I'd break one!
Yes, or you could use a dental pick. I have used channel lock pliers on some items and applied a mild crush on the whole connector to resize the female end. Remember you can always ground that terminal and just remember not to attempt starting the engine while it's running. A 440 is loud enough I would never think it wasn't running :D
JerryT
OK - so in a "pinch", if my female connector totally cracked/broke or something, I could cut it off, strip the three wires back a bit, and ground them somewhere, and I could start the engine? That's a good tip to know.
But what would be the status of my back-up lights? Would they:
1) Stay on all the time
2) Not work
3) Work as usual
I guess I'm wondering, in this scenario, if I should only bother grounding the relay wire, and not the other two.
By the way, where do I send my check made out to "Jerry's RV Electrical"................. :D
I think the lights would stay on when ever the key is in the run position but I don't know if the starter relay would get the ground it needs to energize as the voltage would have to pass thru the filaments in the back up lights i.e. this now becomes a resistance path to ground. I will have try this on the bench sometime.
You need to ground the terminal on the relay that leads to the NSSS not the wires at the NSSS. I take a short length of wire and crimp a 1/4 female spade connector to one end and a fork to the other end. I push on the fork on the relay terminal and then loosen the relay bolt and slide the fork under it and tighten it. The control circuit is now grounded so any time you apply 12v (key to crank) it will energize the relay.
JerryT
Got it! Now I also understand what you mentioned previously about the old Mopar stick trucks and the ground being on the base of the relay mount. Because when I went to pick up my relay at the parts store, the person gave it to me, I take it out to look at it, and there was only one post on it. I said mine needs two. They went back and looked at the manual in their computer, and sure enough, someone put the wrong relay in that box - the parts guy says that the one post model is for older Dodge vehicles.
Well - time to revive this old thread - as here I am a year later with starter trouble.....AGAIN!
This time I try to start and all I get with rapid "grinding" noise.....gears not quite engaging I'm guessing??
I tapped the starter several times with a hammer.....no good.....still get just grinding noise.
Anyone have any other tips?
I'm thinking starter is "toast", but would like to be sure before I go buy a new one.
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Oh Boy - the electrical dunce strikes again!!
So I bought and installed a new starter - but the same problem persisted.
Called a mechanic friend of mine and he said are you sure about your battery?
I said of course I'm sure, my charger says it's fully charged, and the lights work, etc.
My friend says, are you sure about your charger?
DOH!!!!!!
Sure as heck, my charger went poopy on me as far as battery condition read-out. So I kept charging it eventhough it said almost 100% charged, and suddenly (after 5+ minutues) it dropped to the 60% range, like the needle was stuck or something. After 20 minutes, I tested the starter - engine turns over fine - stopped that and I'm now fully charging the battery.
So that was a $50 mis-diagnosis - but my starter was 13 years old anyway - so probably a good idea to swap it out.
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Second update
Well having re-wired/cleaned everything connected to the starter and relay, etc. - wow!! - the new starter, with new battery and clean wiring turns over the Clipper much faster, and it starts much quicker.
Guess my entire "starting system" has been tired for quite a while - I just never noticed :-[