Power Center, Generator, Converter/Charger Help ?

[dboling]

My Generac isn't sounding so well so I tried to find a place to rebuild it.
I talked to a few places recommended by the Generac web site and found nobody that would touch it. I also talked to Generac and they said Brigs and Stratton bought them and that the Generac mc-35 used a brigs and stratton engine.
I talked to Brigs and Stratton and also got nowhere.

Instead of using the Generac generator I brought my old Coleman 5000 powermate to the property hoping it would be a portable replacement for the Generac. Unfortunately the Generac will charge the battery and the Coleman won't, even the Coleman with the AC/DC distribution and 120VAC to 12VDC converter panel the battery won't charge. If I Run the Coleman with my 2/10/40/100/200 amp battery charger hooked to the battery the battery charges nicely. however the battery charger is a wheel type and would have to sit outside in the weather and would end up killing the battery sooner than later.

After a lot of thought, but I guess not enough thought, I bought a portable generator and a new converter/charger.
The componets I bought are:
Generator: XP4400E Max Power http://www.maxtool.com/microsite/powermax/generators/nav/XP4400E.asp
Converter/Charger: PD9260CV http://www.progressivedyn.com/prod_details/rv_conv/rv_converter_pd9260c_2.html

I could have used the Coleman generator but was having to much trouble with the recoil starter and it's fuel consumption is around 8 hrs @1/2 load=5 gallons fuel. The new XP4400E generator is electric and recoil start and is rated 12 hrs @ 1/2 load=3.9 gallons fuel, plus it does 12 volt 8.3 amp battery charging. The 12 volt 8.3 amp battery charging isn't enough power to charge the house battery and run all the 12 volt accessories in the clipper, but will maintain the clippers starting battery while the generator is running, so I bought the converter/charger. The converter/charger looks like it should charge the house battery, run all the 12 volt accessories and then some.

I didn't realize my Power Control Center had a converter/charger already built in, or I would have replace the Power Control Center.

The problem I need help with is installing the new converter/charger with my power control center, basically having the new converter/charger replace the 12 volt section of my control center but I still want to use the 12 volt distribution of my Power Control Center.


The power control center in my clipper is either a PD-731, PD-732 or a PD-733 and is discontinued by progressive dynamics, but they do have the manual online, Here's a link to it: [url http://www.progressivedyn.com/service_discontinued/PD731%20-%20PD735%20and%20PD743%20-%20PD746%20manual.pdf /url]

[John Eversoll]

WOWW!!!!!!!!!!!!

This sounds LIKE a Job For SUPPER JERRY T''
HE HAS ANSWERS THAT LEAP TALL CLIPPERS!!!!!!!!!

[clockwork]

db;
Here is a link to a guide for replacing a Magnetek with a new PD that is helpful  for the rewire . The biggest problem is removing the old  converter components w/o screwing up the 12v side  of the dist. panel. You will not be able to locate the the new PD as they have in the pics- Where is your panel located? Mine is under the groovy orange 1/2 barrel party swivel and I was able to mount my pd9245 in the compartment under the refer next to it ( shared by the heater in my '78 side kitchen model).
http://home.comcast.net/~rabarber/magnetek.htm
I will be glad to help with any specific questions that can help.

[John Eversoll]

And give "Clock work " a big ATTaboy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good job, Clock!!!!

[JerryT]

dboling
Progressive Dynamics are good people! They are in the next town over from me. It is the kind of place that you can walk in the back door right into the parts/service department and talk to the people that know. Sue Johnson has been there for years and really knows her stuff. I bought a new converter for mine a while back. They sold me a used/refurb unit for half price. They said they get them back unbroken from dealers that like to change parts first and figure out the problem later. The stock one was 30 amp so I went with the 40 amp Charge Wizard lead acid model for a little extra omph, (they sell a unit for charging gel cells also) and I pop riveted it to the back side of my breaker/fuse panel. I also bought two of their transfer switches so the shore power/generator/inverter operation would be automatic. I wanted to be able to run the roof A/C and the converter to charge the battery while plugged into a 15 amp hookup without popping the circuit, so I took a chance on the 40 amp unit, so far so good, let us know how that 60 amp unit works. Ground and Bond everything and you will have a nice upgrade.
JerryT

[dboling]

Thanks, JerryT and ClockWork
The information helps a bunch.

I also emailed progressive dynamics on the problem and they sent out a document explaining on how to install this with the old panel. I was going to post the doc but it was a few k to big, so I'm doing a copy paste here and post the picture that was part of the doc as a jpeg attachment.


                                                 Progressive Dynamics Inc.
Service Department.
507 Industrial Road Marshall, MI 49068
TPN: (269)-781-4241 FAX: (269)-781-8729

Retrofit Instructions

This sheet only applies if you currently own and older Progressive Dynamics converter
(PD7200 through PD770) series converters.)

Here are the following steps to install a PD9130, PD9140, PD9145, PD9160, PD9180, PD9245, PD9260, PD9270, or PD9280 into the PD7200 through PD7700 converters.

STEP 1) Remove the present converter from the coach

STEP 2) Remove the defective transformer section and dispose of properly

STEP 3) Mark and drill any necessary mounting holes on the backside of the older distribution panel for mounting the replacement converter to.

STEP 4) Attach a power cord to the 3 prong plug wires (powering the older transformer
section), hot prong to black, neutral prong to white and ground to green. If an AC cord
was installed, then an 4C receptacle will need to be installed if one is not present,
under the distribution panel.  DO NOT CUT THE CORD this will void the
warranty.

STEP 5) Screw or rivet the PD9 100 or PD9200 tight to the back of the distribution panel.

STEP 6) DC panel- remove all parts and wiring except for the metal frame and fuse
panel. Retain a jumper Wire

Step 7) Run an appropriate gauge wire from the battery ?+? terminal of the
PD9100/PD9200 through a knock out to the battery ? ? ? on the fuse panels back side.
Run a wire from the PD9100/PD9200 ?-? terminal to the battery ?-? on the fuse panel?s
backside using the same~ knock out.

Step 8 ) Run the jumper wire from the left fuse bank (fuse panel?s backside). This
connects all fuses on th~ fuse panel at 13.6 volts. (If your unit has a third fuse bank, tie it
in the same way with another jumper.)

Note: The unit will no longer have the Sentinel light indicating charge to the battery.
The PD9100/PD9200 circuitry automatically charges the battery only when battery level
is below the 13.6VDC. Remember converter only works when 11OVAC is available
through shore power or a generator.

We hope these steps help in simplifying the conversion process. If you have, any
questions please feel free to call.

Respectfully,
PDI Service Department

[John Eversoll]

wow, this is great and interesting news!!! I am very glad that I have read this..
John

[dboling]

wow, this is great and interesting news!!! I am very glad that I have read this..
John

Sounds like you want a new converter/charger in your clipper and now have instructions on how to do it.

[dboling]

After a much closer inspection of my panel, it looks like mine may have already been converted.
There is a converter in the generator compartment that I thought was part of the main control panel, however it is not mounted. Not sure what brand the converter is but it's pretty old and only rated to 9 amps on the 12 volt side, it's 120 volt input current draw is WAY more than the PD9260 60 amp converter.

The new converter will be delivered here on Thursday so I'll let you know how it works out . My guess is it's going to work awesome. 

[dboling]

dboling
Progressive Dynamics are good people! They are in the next town over from me. It is the kind of place that you can walk in the back door right into the parts/service department and talk to the people that know. Sue Johnson has been there for years and really knows her stuff. I bought a new converter for mine a while back. They sold me a used/refurb unit for half price. They said they get them back unbroken from dealers that like to change parts first and figure out the problem later. The stock one was 30 amp so I went with the 40 amp Charge Wizard lead acid model for a little extra omph, (they sell a unit for charging gel cells also) and I pop riveted it to the back side of my breaker/fuse panel. I also bought two of their transfer switches so the shore power/generator/inverter operation would be automatic. I wanted to be able to run the roof A/C and the converter to charge the battery while plugged into a 15 amp hookup without popping the circuit, so I took a chance on the 40 amp unit, so far so good, let us know how that 60 amp unit works. Ground and Bond everything and you will have a nice upgrade.
JerryT

JerryT, can you tell me how your Progressive Dynamics 9100 Series with charge wizard works ?
I'm not sure my 9200 series with built in charge wizard is working right. it charges the battery, but doesn't seem automatically switch modes unless there's no AC power to it.

I really like the new 60 amp converter/charger. It charges the battery Very Very fast, even when running a lot of accessories.
Before when I turned on about 3 - 5 lights, the lights would start to dim, the water pump would cycle slower, the furnace would also start to slow a lot.
Now I can turn almost everything on in the coach and the lights are nice and bright. The problem I was having with my furnace blowing cold air seems to be gone and the water pump cycles in a heart beat.

I'll list the steps I did to test and install the converter.

Over the last few days I've had a chance to play with the PD9260C as I installed it into
my RV with a brand new RV marine battery.

All modes work and the boost mode charges the battery very nicely.

First I'll go through the few different ways I installed the unit and the testing I did
and the panel I have in the RV.

Componets
--------
Control Panel: PD-733
Old Converter: CS-509 Converter Systems Power Center 12 VDC 9.0 amp.
New Converter: PD9260C with pendant 12 VDC 60 amp.
Battery: 80ah Marine New.
2 Gauge Jumper Cable/Power Inverter Wire factory made with battery ring ends.

About a week ago Progressive Dynamics sent instructions on how to install converter with my old panel
which helped a lot.

First I inspected my system and found that and external converter had already been
adapted to my Power Control Panel, which made thing go a lot easier.


The following below was preformed with the 5000 watt generator running.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I hooked the two 12 VDC wires from the control panel to the new converter and plugged the
converter in. I heard the control panel click and the converter started charging the
battery at around 14 VDC. I set the converter to 13.2 VDC and turned all accessories on.
18 lights, bathroom fan, furnace, water pump(water running) and waited 15 minutes for the
converter to switch modes.

I unplugged the converter and removed the two control panel wires from the converter. I
then installed the 2 gauge wire direct to the battery and the converter and plugged the
converter in. There was no click as I wasn't feeding the power control panel, but the
battery started charging at 14. VDC. The 2 gauge wire made a big difference as to how fast
the battery charged. I  set the converter to 13.2 VDC and turned all accessories on. 18
lights, bathroom fan, furnace, water pump(water running) and waited 15 minutes for the
converter to switch modes.

I unplugged the converter and installed the two Power Control Panel wires with the 2 gauge
leads still attached to the battery and the power control panel clicked. I plugged the
converter in. I set the converter to 13.2 VDC and turned all accessories on. 18 lights, bathroom
fan, furnace, water pump(water running) and waited 15 minutes for the
converter to switch modes.

I unplugged the converter and removed the two power control panel wires
from the converter. I then turned all accessories on and drained the battery to 10.5 VDC.
I plugged in the converter and set it to 13.2 VDC with all accessories still on and
waited 15 minutes for the converter to switch modes.

The only time it would switch modes while plugged into AC power is when I pushed the
manual button 1 time. It would then go into 14 VDC boost mode.

I needed to use the generator to do some construction and left the RV plugged into it for
about 4 - 5 hours while the generator ran. The battery was almost fully charged,
converter was in boost mode at the start, after 4 - 5 hours I checked the converter and
it was still in boost mode.

Last night I was up late using only candles and didn't use any 12 VDC accessories at all,
The battery was at full charge. The pendant started with a solid green light, about 4
hours later it switched into Normal mode and about 1 hour after that it switched into the
maintain mode, I then used the water and it switched into boost mode.

After all the different ways I installed the converter I prefer the 2 gauge wire hookup
direct to the battery without going through the power control panel. The battery charges
much faster than going through the 12 - 14 gauge wires that the old converter was using.
Plus I'm not using extra 12 volt power just to hold the 12 volt switching relay locked in.

[JerryT]

Hi dboling.
I am posting the sales brochure for the charge wizard. It says it can override manual commands and switch into automatic mode if it wants to, with that said, I have only manually switched modes once just to see what would happen. I could not tell any difference as I did not put a digital meter on it. I have let it do it's thing ever since and had no problems. I like your 2 gauge to the battery idea. I think mine is mostly 8 and 10 gauge. I do not have a 12v relay in my charge system (unless it's built in the converter) I have mine wired out to the battery then back to the panel, I had read to do it that way as the battery will help buffer the voltage (rectified a/c) and give cleaner/smoother power. When we dry camped this fall at Applebutter we pulled in the first night and ran the electric blanket via the inverter, second night I ran the electric blanket and furnace all night with no problem but the fan was slow by morning and the low voltage alarm on the inverter had come on earlier. Checked the voltage at 8 am and it was 9.6v so I started the generator (had to turn on the Dodge key to connect to the full start battery) and let it run for about 2 hours, back to 13+v. The battery people want you to re-charge slow and low (amp) the battery charger people brag about how fast they can re-charge your battery---I guess life is an average, full of economic compromises, with time constraints
JerryT

[dboling]

Hi dboling.
I am posting the sales brochure for the charge wizard. It says it can override manual commands and switch into automatic mode if it wants to, with that said, I have only manually switched modes once just to see what would happen. I could not tell any difference as I did not put a digital meter on it. I have let it do it's thing ever since and had no problems. I like your 2 gauge to the battery idea. I think mine is mostly 8 and 10 gauge. I do not have a 12v relay in my charge system (unless it's built in the converter) I have mine wired out to the battery then back to the panel, I had read to do it that way as the battery will help buffer the voltage (rectified a/c) and give cleaner/smoother power. When we dry camped this fall at Applebutter we pulled in the first night and ran the electric blanket via the inverter, second night I ran the electric blanket and furnace all night with no problem but the fan was slow by morning and the low voltage alarm on the inverter had come on earlier. Checked the voltage at 8 am and it was 9.6v so I started the generator (had to turn on the Dodge key to connect to the full start battery) and let it run for about 2 hours, back to 13+v. The battery people want you to re-charge slow and low (amp) the battery charger people brag about how fast they can re-charge your battery---I guess life is an average, full of economic compromises, with time constraints
JerryT

I just happened to have the 2 gauge battery leads laying around from my trucking days. I need longer 2 gauge wire installed for my 3000 watt inverter. must have microwave, TV, xbox, ect. when long haul trucking.

Progressive Dynamics says in there FAQ that running a battery below 10.5 volts damages it.

The night before the converter arrived my spouse called and said that the furnace was blowing but there was no heat coming out. When I got there the next day the battery was at  9.9 - 10.0 volts. I hooked up the converter/charger and the battery was charged in about an hour or so. We used 12 volt power all night including the furnace from that charge.
I'm very impressed. I was going to buy the 70 amp converter but I didn't want to spend the extra money. I also looked on eBay and found 3 reconditioned PD9280 80 amp converters for $125. and $10. shipping but it said I had to have 20 amp receptacles to go above 70 amps. Far as I can tell if you have a generator or are on shore power 45 - 60 amps is a perfect fit for the clipper. I have enough room for 1 or 2 more batteries so maybe I'll add an inverter later on. I hear some places ban Generators or limit them after it gets dark, so an inverter would be a great addition to the clipper. I could have used an electric blanket the other night.


My clipper still has the origanal American Clipper control center with the analog battery meter in it and I use it to gauge whats happening far as power. the new 60 amp converter pegs the meter and moves about a needles worth when I turn 18 lights on, the bathroom fan and the furnace. When I use the water with everything on the needle will drop about 1/3 and jumps right back to the top. I wish the tank gauges on the control center would read above 1/4, but I'll deal with that someday. it looks like a bunch of work to fix. 

Monday the new Generator gets here, I hope it's small enough to get into the coach door so I can travel with it. In one year after the warranty expires I'll take it apart and install it where the Generac is mounted. The guy at maxtool.com said he knows a few people that has mounted the portable generators in there RV. Basically you need to add a couple fans to cool the generator section and one to help cool the motor and of course you need to redo the exhaust.

[JerryT]

dboling
I read the correct way to take a voltage reading is to isolate the battery from any draw, wait for it to stabilize and then take a reading. I doubt that my 9.6 or your 9.9 readings were correct as they were (mine was) in the system with potential draw. I also read that it's okay for a battery to be drawn down to a low voltage condition (10.5v) but it is not ok for a battery to sit for a period of time in that condition, the sooner you recharge the better. I am running one 31 series Trojan floor scrubber deep cycle battery in the factory location, it weighs 78#. Where do you or are you going to put your batteries?  My coach did not come with a generator. I have mounted my generator (Onan 2800) under the floor as I did not want to give up my side storage. I talked to the service tech in person at the Onan facility in Elkhart Indiana, he told me my 2800 had a 25 amp breaker inside it. He also told me to run what I wanted to inside, he said if I started to trip the 25 from over load to replace it with a 30 amp breaker and not to worry as the 2800 is under rated and can put out more. He fired one up on the bench with the test equipment connected to it and increased the load via what looked like a big electric heater to show me. The Clipper has a 30 amp service with a 30 amp main breaker so if I ever have the need I have an option. I love our inverter, I went with a 2500 watt one. I choose it on physical size and price per watt. When we drive (run fridge) or dry camp I leave it on as it has a very minimal background draw, I wired it thru a P.D. transfer switch so it feeds the breaker panel and all the a/c outlets have fire to them (I just don't turn on the a/c)  We watch movies on the laptop and charge phones and cameras ect. I mounted it to the bottom of the shelf that the fridge sits on upside down. It was then only 2-3 feet from the battery and panel and the new T.S which I mounted to the bottom of the sofa support at the battery/converter end, upside down also, an easy hookup between all three. I did put the converter on a relay so it would not come on when the inverter was on.
Take some pics so we can see your progress if you can.
JerryT

[dboling]

dboling
I read the correct way to take a voltage reading is to isolate the battery from any draw, wait for it to stabilize and then take a reading. I doubt that my 9.6 or your 9.9 readings were correct as they were (mine was) in the system with potential draw. I also read that it's okay for a battery to be drawn down to a low voltage condition (10.5v) but it is not ok for a battery to sit for a period of time in that condition, the sooner you recharge the better. I am running one 31 series Trojan floor scrubber deep cycle battery in the factory location, it weighs 78#. Where do you or are you going to put your batteries?  My coach did not come with a generator. I have mounted my generator (Onan 2800) under the floor as I did not want to give up my side storage. I talked to the service tech in person at the Onan facility in Elkhart Indiana, he told me my 2800 had a 25 amp breaker inside it. He also told me to run what I wanted to inside, he said if I started to trip the 25 from over load to replace it with a 30 amp breaker and not to worry as the 2800 is under rated and can put out more. He fired one up on the bench with the test equipment connected to it and increased the load via what looked like a big electric heater to show me. The Clipper has a 30 amp service with a 30 amp main breaker so if I ever have the need I have an option. I love our inverter, I went with a 2500 watt one. I choose it on physical size and price per watt. When we drive (run fridge) or dry camp I leave it on as it has a very minimal background draw, I wired it thru a P.D. transfer switch so it feeds the breaker panel and all the a/c outlets have fire to them (I just don't turn on the a/c)  We watch movies on the laptop and charge phones and cameras ect. I mounted it to the bottom of the shelf that the fridge sits on upside down. It was then only 2-3 feet from the battery and panel and the new T.S which I mounted to the bottom of the sofa support at the battery/converter end, upside down also, an easy hookup between all three. I did put the converter on a relay so it would not come on when the inverter was on.
Take some pics so we can see your progress if you can.
JerryT

Last night I got a call from my spouse screaming that she got to the motorhome and the battery was dead. Whether the battery was dead or not I'm not sure. I think she figured it was dead due to the propane tank being empty and the fridge pilot light indicator flashing all day and the shower had a small drip that turned the water pump on for a split second every 15 minutes or so. She also said the the converter pendant was flashing fast, which is supposed to be on solid when there is no AC power. She fired up the generator and started to charge the battery and I had her hold the manual pendant switch to run through all the modes, She said the penant light would go to a solid light, a flashing light but would not go into the 5 second flash mode. Monday I'll check it out to see whats up. It's sounding more like a defective charge wizard built into the converter.

Your 100% correct when you say that you need to check the battery without anything connected to it when checking the battery voltage or you may get a false voltage reading.
Not sure on the 10.5 volts though as progressive dynamics Battery Basics 101 says it will damage the battery. I'm attaching the image from their website that states this.


The Generator compartment is longer then the Generac generator and has a foam panel between the generator and extra space in the compartment which leaves me about a foot or so to play with for more batteries. I have the PD9260 sitting in that space right now, but if I build a small platform I can place batteries above or below the converter and place 1 battery in front of the platform. There is also space behind the factory battery location that can be extended to maybe add 1 more battery, although that would leave little clearance space between the battery and power control center. The extention would need to be removable so you could get at the back of the control panel. The new generator would just take the place of the old on-board generator. Wish I could afford a new Onan or Generac and an inverter, maybe in the future as with 3 Generators available to the RV I should be able to get by.

[dboling]

I emailed the eBay seller I bought the PD9260C converter from and he just called. I explained the issue and he's says it's defective and is going to replace the converter and pendant.