Engine Trouble - Appears to be starving for gas

[bigray]

Hey Folks,

I need your help. I took a trip between Christmas and New Years. I traveled about 300 miles Northwest of Houston. For those not familiar with that area it's the Texas Hill Country and it's laden with rolling hills.

On my way back, my engine seemed to be starving for gas. Initially it only did it when I started to go uphill. Then for kicks I gunned it going down hill and it did it also but not as bad.

After about 60 miles the engine died and wouldn't start. I had to pull off the doghouse, and squirt some lighter fluid in the carberator to get it started (should have seen my family's face as I look like McGuyver).

When I opened the breather I noticed that the wool mesh that catch the oil from the PCV had come loose.  Thus the breather filter itself was full of oil.  I figured oil had gotten in the injectors and clogged things up a bit. I put in some gas treatment and octane booster hoping this would solve the problem. It did for a little bit but the problem resumed.

At any rate, I could not go pass 40-50 mph the whole way home (needless to say It made for a long treat).  It didn't die like before. Mainly because I backed off the gas pedal when it started to flutter.

It's been two weeks and I'm dying to fix the problem for a upcoming trip. I'm about to change all the rubber fuel lines (Andy suggested I do it earlier when I had problems with my genny but I was hardheaded), vacuum lines and fuel filter.

These are my questions:

1) Can I disconnect the PCV line going to the breather without changing
   the engine performance. I'd like to put one of the filters like they have
   on high performance cars. That way I don't have to worry about that oil
   getting into the breather and carb again.

2) Can I install an inline fuel filter close to the gas tank if there's not one
    there is not one already. If figure with sitting up between trips and all
    the fill ups due to having a 30 gallon tank the is a high likelyhood that
   dirt and trash will get sucked up. At least with a clear filter I can
   readily see if my filter is clogged.

3) What could be my problem other than the things that I mentioned. I
   thought that it was the float in the carb but she's not smoking at all.

Thanks for your time and feedback!

[Andy Illes]

Tch, tch, tch Ray.  If the thing's only bogging down with a high fuel demand, it's not likely your injectors - clogged injectors will usually give trouble all over the place (smoky exhaust, bad idle, etc), not just under heavy load.   First suspect with what you're describing, as you know, is the fuel filters.  Be sure to look for "hidden" ones too.  Somebody had put one in mine hidden against a bnook in the frame down near the charcoal canister.  Next suspect is bad fuel lines.... either deteriorated or kinked (be sure to eyeball the metal lines too).

To answer your questions....  Though it's unlikely to have anything to do with your current issue, no prob at all leaving the PCV off.  All that system does is suck crankcase blow-by into the carb to burn, instead of vent to the air.  Things might get a little oily is all.  You can put all the filters you want in, anywhere you want 'em... just assure good connections.  Take a look at Dave's (AlienDude) string on the subject.  Went through this by the numbers in that one.  

One other thing to check is ignition timing.  If that slipped, it can cause similar symptoms, though usually with heavy pinging.

Good luck....  

[bigray]

Just returned from the storage yard where I store my Clipper doing some repairs. I replaced the fuel filter and the rubber fuel lines coming off the manual fuel pump. I noticed that they had small cracks in them a while back. I don't think they were taking in air but I changed them anyway.

Tomorrow evening I plan to drop the gas tank and replace any rubber hoses there as well. I don't think there is another fuel filter but I will inspect closely tomorrow. I will also inspect the metal line as you suggested, Andy.

I mispoke about the oil getting in the my breather filter. It's not from the PCV. The hose from the PCV connects directly in the base of the carburator. It's the hose coming from the value cover on the opposite side that's mucking things up. When I open the breather the little mess filter had come loose again. I'm going to have to get a new one. I think the heat has distorted the plastic case therefore it's not holding the mess filter in place like it should.

At any rate, this is the hole I'd like to use one of the mushroom type filters on. Does this hose have to feed into the breather or can I use one of the mushroom type filters? Given that the filter has the mess filter I suspect that some oil is expected. However, I wonder if this is a sign of a problems with my engine. Any thoughts!

Man.....it's midnight. I got to get some shuteye!

[Andy Illes]

Hmmm.   Check your PCV valve Ray.  The way that system works is very simple.  Basically, it's just a closed-loop one-way ventilation system for the engine innards.  Clean air is admitted to one side of the engine from the air cleaner (through your oily hose and that little air filter), circulates down through the crankcase and gets sucked out the other side through the PCV valve into the carb base.... that's it.   Pop the PCV valve out and shake it.... if you hear a little ball rattling, it's probably ok, plus you should feel a slight vacuum on the valve cover end of the PCV.  Squirting some carb/choke or brake cleaner in it never hurts  

Because it's (supposed to be) under vacuum, that little air filter on the intake side really shouldn't be all that oily.... if; A) The PCV's not stuck shut - and/or; B) there's not excessive blow-by past the rings.  Check the PCV valve first (shake & feel for vacuum) and if that's ok, take the hose off the air cleaner with the engine running... hang a sheet of paper in front of it and see if it sucks against the hose, it should.  If the PCV passed, but the paper still doesn't get sucked against the intake hose, then you have too much blow-by from the piston rings for the suction-side to handle.  That's usually from worn 2nd rings, so crankcase is under positive pressure and fumes (and oil) get blown out the intake side too, into the air cleaner.

[bigray]

Thanks for the feedback, Andy.

I read my Haynes manual last night and it suggested that I do exactly what you described. Except for the paper towel test. You are the MAN!

I'll try what you suggested tonight and give an update. The PCV value that I have installed is less than 1 year old.

On one hand I hope my engine isn't in need of overhaul. It only has 48K miles on it.  On the other hand, I've been looking for an excuse to snatch that engine and tranny out and put a modern fuel injected engine with a overdrive tranny on it. That should cost about as much as putting in a Gear Vendor.

On the way back from our trip, I was quite pissed so I said that I was going to sell my Clipper if she put me down (I rubbed the dashboard and apologize afterwards). Afterwards, my wife made a comment: I just want to take a trip without having problems. We need a more reliable RV. Hurt me to my heart, I tell ya.

At any rate, I can do the compression test thinggy to see where my engine stands if the PCV and paper towel test prove that I have blow-by.

Boy, I'm speaking like I have money to buy another engine and tranny. I haven't even recovered from X-mas shopping yet! Man, I got it bad!

[Andy Illes]

First and most importantly............... get RID of that Clip-hating wife...... IMMEDIATELY!!!!   Sheesh.... what desecrating blasphemery - what irreverant sacrilege!!!!!!!!!  She didn't like the toilet either, as I recall.   Shaking my head buddy.   Good you gave the little Clip a comforting pat.  Poor thing.

As to the "paper test", firstly it's only necessary if you can't feel a light vacuum with your finger (a vac guage also works, of course).  Secondly, use a piece of ordinary paper, not a paper towel.  Also, if the PCV tests ok, be sure to rev the engine up and down while you're doing the test.  If it's a ring or related issue causing excessive blow-by, it'll usually "suck" ok at idle, then "blow" at higher revs, esp. under load.  Hopefully, it's just a clogged PCV valve, they get pretty cruddy.  Also check the grommet the PCV valve fits into.  They can get crunchy and leak enough air to basically negate the system.

PS... just kidding wife  :wink:

[bigray]

The way I look at it, she just gave me the okay to spend some money. Right!

Thanks for the info, buddy! Like I said, I'll sneak out to the storage lot as soon as the kids are off to bed and spend some quality time with my Clipper. I think she misses me. I still have some making up to do after making that comment about selling her.

Take care!

[Andy Illes]

If I remember my married days correctly.... that's a pretty good way to "look at it"...  :lol:

Ahhhhh... oh to be divorced and retired.... just me, my doggie and Clip.  Sigh.  Kindda makes ya wanna dab your eyes, huh?   Eat your heart out..... HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[bigray]

I ain't touching that one!

[bigray]

Got off to a late start last night. I decided to change all the hoses before doing the test you suggested, Andy. I changed serveral vacuum lines and was in the process of dropping the gas tank to change all the hoses when I got tired and called it a night.

Hopefully I get everything changed out tonight!

[bigray]

Thought I'd give everyone an update on my fuel problem. I traveled to Ville Platt, Louisiana (600 miles round trip) this weekend for some camping and didn't have any problems whatsoever. Yeeeeee Hawwwwww!

I changed the fuel filter and PCV value and all the rubber vacuum hoses connecting it to the carb. I also changed all the grummets on my value cover. I changed the other air hose on the carb breather as well.
While I was at it, I changed my value cover gaskets. Don't know if any of you have attempted this,  just know that it's not a VERY simple task.

The value cover on the driver side is obstructed by the A/C compressor and bracket. It's a real mother to remove it too. I had to completely remove the A/C compressor. I say completely; however, I just disconnected it from the bracket and pulled it forwad so that  it would rest on top of the grill. The lines remained connected. I didn't want to disconnect the line and have to recharge my A/C. I did that when I replace my water pump.

At any rate, I wanted to change all the rubber gas lines and inspect the metal line carefully. I changed the ones near the manual fuel pump. When I dropped the gas tank to change the rubber lines at the tank I realized that instead of having a separate fuel pickup for the generator some genius decided to but a T in the line going to the chassis fuel pump.

I'm pretty sure that the T in the fuel line was part of my problem. My theory is that once the chassis fuel pump pulled all the fuel out of the genny line it began to take on air. The genny is higher than the fuel pump so the fuel was never replenished unless I cranked the genny. My question was why did it not give the previous owner (my aunt & uncle) trouble. After talking to him it appears that he did have some problems but attributed it to something else.

He also said that the genny would shut off when the fuel was low; however, I know that that's incorrect because there's was only one fuel pickup for the chassis engine and genny.

To remedy the problem I got some 5/16 brake line from AutoZone. I then drilled a hole in sending unit to add the extra fuel pickup line for the genny. I used a cheap pipe bender and flare set from AutoZone to make the appropriate modifications. I guesstimated quarter tank level and made the genny pickup shorter so that the genny would stop short of empty tank of fuel.

I had to replace the sock on the end of the chassis fuel pickup. It was deteriorated and the seam had opened. I got one from the local Chevy dealership. It cost $14. I didn't put one on the pickup for the genny; however, I added an in-line, clear filter from AutoZone and placed it at the intersection of the metal and rubber lines. I then reinstalled the sending unit to the fuel tank and remounted it.

TIPS:

1) When removing the gas tank, only remove the rear bolts for the
    straps. It makes lowering the tank and reinstallation a ton easier. You
    simpy place the tank on the fuel tank and pull backwards to lift the
     tank.

2) To remove the A/C bracket, there is a bolt for the A/C bracket behind
   the fan belt tensioner. You can remove this bolt with a 9/16 wrench
   without removing the fan belt tensioner.

3) There are 3 screws for adjusting the fan belt for the A/C. Appears to be
   one but there are 2 at the bottom of the bracket.

4) When replacing the A/C compressor don't tighten the screws
   completely until you have started all 4 screws. Makes it a lot easier.

5) If changing the value covers, remove the A/C compressor first. The
   front right screw is hard to get to otherwise. Alternatively, replace,
   that screw before you reinstall the A/C compressor. Lot easier that
   way.

6) There are 3 hose sizes for the Chevy one ton (assuming all are the
    same as mine) fuel system. 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8".

Good Luck and Happy Clippering!

[bcoxsey]

I had a similar type of problem with my clipper about a year or so ago. I found that the previous owners of my clipper changed the rubber fuel lines and instead of dropping the gas tank and doing it right, they cut the rubber fuel line just to the point that they could reach. Well, the way I found it was after running up a hill (Cuesta Grade near San Luis Obispo, CA) I was only able to go about 15-20 MPH... Well, I had my wife give it some gas (when it was parked in the driveway) and I sat near the gas tank and listened - I heard an actual "sucking" sound coming from the broken/worn fuel line.

You may also want to look into a new fuel pump - a 25-30 year old pump could be a problem... You may want to go with an electric fuel pump while you are at it. If none of these things work, you could need to rebuild your carb... All of these fixes are relatively simple, and do not cost too much money, but they take a little time.

[bigray]

Thanks for the feedback bcoxsey. I changed my fuel pump a couple of months after I got my Clipper ( January 2004).

I think I have the problem licked with all the repairs mentioned in my post!

Andy suggested that I rebuild my carb. I will shortly but I'm just trying to enjoy her while she's running good!

[bigray]

Well folks.........my fuel problem reappeared this weekend. It wasn't as bad as last time but about as frustrating.

I drove the Clippper to Baton Rouge Lousiana (250 miles from Houston) and on the return trip it started to sputter when I reached 60 mph. It ran great on the way there. I averaged about 60 mph and got her up to 70 mph without any problems.

When it sputtered it sounded as if it was running out of gas. I only was able to drive it 50 mph or so. I don't know what the problem is. I'm going to install the electric fuel pump like Andy, Handyman, and other advisedd me. I hope that fixes the problem.

One thing that I noticed was that the metal fuel line runs pretty close to the exhaust manifold. However, given the cool weather the engine was relatively cool. Didn't know if that would cuase a vapor lock condition of some sort.

When I arrive home, I notice that the engine was idling a little high. Almost to the point where it sounded like the carb was loading up. But there wasn't any smoking or roughness.

This morning a patted the excelerator and she fired right up!

I'm stumped. I hope the electric fuel pump fixes the problem. Otherwise I'm going to have to rebuild or replace the carburator.

Anybody has any suggestions?

[Rodney]

This can be a frustrating thing to chase down Ray sounds like you are doing all of the right things. Have you checked the fuel pump pressure? I have a pressure / vacuum gauge that I bought years ago that is very helpful in diagnosing these kinds of problems. hook the gauge to the fuel line and clamp it well. start or spin the engine to build pressure and read the gauge, if all is working correctly the pressure should read 5 to 7 pounds give or take but pretty close to that. The pressure should hold there after the engine is shut down {for a while}. I have had "new" fuel pumps fail. If you are running a Chevy? think you are, the fuel pump is actuated by a shaft from the cam, I have seen this shaft have excess wear causing low fuel performance. This has been on engines with a lot of miles?
you may also check your ignition system. Chevy's electronic ignitions are prone to burning caps / rotors and wires can also break down and cause intermittent problems. The ignition module when fails the engine usually quits all together. but my have that checked or replaced also. this module needs to have a specific type of grease under it to maintain contact. I have seen this be the cause of problems as well.
hope I didn't repeat other posts Good luck Ray
let us know how it goes
Electric fuel pump? If installed and you haven't found the real problem isn't this a band aid?
When installing an electric fuel pump  IMO you are dealing with safety issues that concern me. On autos with OEM electric fuel pumps there are saftey precautions that are incorprated into the system-- the one I  am refuring to is a safety shut off to the power for the pump if / when the vheicle is in an accident hit or rolled over the power is cut to the pump. Important stuff to consider. If you simply install the pump and a fuel line is ruptured even with the engine stalled and power still on you will  be pumping fuel. In the event of a crash would you or someone cut the power if injured? Ya might not be able to do so.
This is a bad deal.
Paranoid yes I am but I have seen the results of firey crashes and believe me burning up is not way to go.
Rodney